Thursday, November 8, 2007

Gay-friendly Churches

Bob spent some time today blacklisting gay friendly churches by outing them on the air and encouraging them to get their names removed from this list. He compared gay friendly churches to being "drunkenness friendly."*

But Bob doesn't hate gay people. He just wants to make sure that no churches welcome them. Kind of like shunning or excommunication or something like that.

*(I always thought drunks were welcome at church! Shows what I know)


rocky said...

I hope you don't mind a little constructive criticism.

While I don't remember exactly what Mr. Dutko said, I don't recall him saying he doesn't want gays to go to church. He's said many times that:

A) He doesn't want to see churches excepting certain lifestyles whether they be homosexuality or drunkenness.

B) He wants gays to turn from that lifestyle, repent, and follow Christ. He's not damming them to hell.

I never actually remember him saying that he doesn't want gays to go to church. The term "Gay friendly" is generally defined as a church that accepts the lifestyle. The website he was referring to "" clearly claims that homosexuality is not a sin.

I want gays to go to church. I don't agree with homosexuality but I want them in church and always welcome them. Most churches minus some southern churches welcome gays, not the lifestyle. Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's the way it goes.

I listen to Bob's show quite a bit. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I think he brings up some good points. Sometimes I too thing he goes a wayyyy overboard.

I welcome any criticism.

djtyg said...

Rocky, what you're asking for is incredibly unreasonable.

What you're saying is that you want people to attend a church where they're constantly belittled and told that they don't deserve to be treated like human beings. Nobody would attend a church that says that about them.

And don't tell me "no, we don't do that." You're talking to a guy who went to churches for years that SAID they didn't do that, and then went and did it. I remember watching a play at my church (done by people who came from Bob Jones University, no less), in which a preacher was trying to get a gay teacher fired from a public school. And the preacher was the "good guy."

This was all being condoned by people who, if you asked, would say they wanted gay people to get saved. I call shenanigans on that. It's much easier to hate them so that you don't have to worry about your own sins. Because, after all, your sins aren't nearly as bad, right?

djtyg said...

For the record, Jeff, I don't think anyone who attends the gay friendly churches listen to Bob anyway:).

rocky said...

To be fair, djtyg, you do bring up valid points. I will say that the whole issue of homosexuality isn't handled properly in the church. I also understand its a very touchy issue. Most people don't like to touch it. Most people just dance around it.

Personally, I think this issue need to be discussed. I understand there are disagreements. There's always gonna be disagreements but we should still talk everything through.

Implying that I think my sins aren't as bad a a gay person's sin is a gross assumption. I never said I was perfect. I never said I was better than anybody because they happen to struggle with different sins than I do. I said I want them in church, just as much as I want myself in church because I fall short everyday. Just as much as I want someone in church who is struggling with lust, envy, adultery, drunkennes, glutony, cursing, murder, wrath, pride or any other sin.

The key is repentance. Having a change of mind, heart and direction. Turning from your old sinful nature. And yes! This does include more than homosexuality.

As far as churches saying they don't but they do.. like I said before, the issue just plain isn't handled properly by most churches. I believe that, in a church, there can be a balance of accepting homosexuals as 100% human beings, while still explaining that even though they are indeed loved by God, they need to turn from their lifestyle of sin just as I turned from my lifestyle of many sins.

I know that nobody will change their minds on the issue overnight but nonetheless thanks for reading.

dan said...

bobbo forgot my church. unity in warren.

probably most all unity and unitarian churches have accepted gay men / women. bi men and women and people in between.

once people begin to look between the lines ;-)
at the words of christ and of jesus the christ, it
is a very different, more life affirming story that
is told.

so very different than bobbos all or nothing and
very literal black and white read of scripture. in
fact, depending on how you read and interpret,
you can see different sides of these things, his
and other sides to.

djtyg said...

"I never said I was better than anybody because they happen to struggle with different sins than I do."

This is the response I always get when I bring this up. It's like it's a recorded response and I just happen to hit the "play" button.

The truth is, if you really felt that way, you wouldn't be acting like being gay is a big deal. You'd be more worried about improving yourself. But it's easier to judge others.

If you read your history, you'd see the same preachers who brought about the endless gay bashing were the same ones who were advocating for segregation almost 50 years ago. Once segregation ended and racism was no longer a money maker, they turned their attention to gay people instead.

And to say that they're living a "sinful lifestyle" while you're not is nothng more than showing that in the end, you think you're better than them. You don't know every gay person on the planet. I'm sure there are gay people who work in soup kitchens, give to charity, and even attend a gay friendly church on Sunday. To say they have a "sinful lifestyle" while you don't is incredibly demeaning. Do you mean to tell me you haven't sinned today?

Besides, I'm one of those "gay friendly" Christians who doesn't think being gay is a sin anyway (check out Soulforce).

rocky said...

"Do you mean to tell me you haven't sinned today?"

If you read what I wrote, "I want them in church, just as much as I want myself in church because I fall short everyday.", you'd see that I admitted to sinning everyday.

Now I also said that I turned from my old sinful nature and here's the difference between the two:

-Turning from your old sinful nature: Means turning your back on the way you used to be. Saying, "I'm done". Like I said before, repentance, a change of mind, heart and direction. I could give you a million examples of bad things that I used to do until one day, I decided that I was sick of standing on the fence.

Lust: Jesus says in Matthew that even looking at a women with lust committis adultery with her in your heart. I would be checking girls out all the time in a perverted way and it was wrong. One day I decided that I needed to keep my eyes where they're supposed to be. Now I somedays I find myself slipping up but I catch myself.

Envy: I used to be so jealous of my brother. Sometimes I was mad at God because I thought he gave him all of the good genes and I was left with nothing. I was extremely envious of his talents and I wasn't grateful for the talents God gave me. I started to realize that I should be thankful to God for making me who I am and be thankful, instead of envious, for making my brother who he is.

Theft: I along with many people have had a big problem with stealing music off the internet and burning rented movies. I kept telling myself I wasn't doing anything wrong because for goodness sakes its mostly Christain music that I'm stealing or mostly clean movies that I'm stealing so its not like I'm being a part of anything unclean. One day a friend of mine said something that inspired me to stop stealing music. I deleted all the stolen music off my i-pod, off of my computer, I threw away all of my burned cd's, and I threw away all of those movies I rented from the video store that I burned.

-Falling short everyday of the Glory of God: means that I still slip up. As I'm running toward the goal ahead, I say to myself this is hard and I start temporarily fall back into bad habbits. After I realize what a fool I am being, I pick myself back up, brush myself off and keep pressin toward the goal.

Sin comes easy and refraining from sin is not so easy. Now I can see that we are all brothers or sisters in Christ. I gave you a small chunk out of my testimony, by that I hope that you can try and see the world through my eyes.

I know, just as dan said, its all based upon how we interpret what we read in the Word of God. The way it goes: I think I'm right and you guys think you're right. And like I said nobody's going to change their minds overnight on the issue.

djtyg said...

Yes, I'm well aware of the "sin vs. living in sin" talking point. There isn't anything you can say to me that I haven't once said myself.

My point is that a lot of Christians make a big deal out of bashing gay people because its not "their" sin. It's done so that like the Pharisee, you can thank God that you aren't the tax collector. It's easier to judge others.

I know the response to this is always "I don't think I'm better than anyone else." You're only fooling yourself with that statement.

djtyg said...

Forgot to add: There is no difference between sinning and "living in sin". Sinning is sinning.

Lumberjack said...

While I admire Catholcs for their chratiy -- charity so often directed to non-Catholics, I note there is not one RC church on the list.

Anonymous said...

Folks, I must confess something to you: I don't believe in sin. As most people who frequent this blog recognize, I'm not overly religious. Therefore, I probably approach such matters with a different perspective.

For instance, let's compare the "sins" of alcoholism vs. homosexuality. Alcoholics are typically destructive not only to themselves but to others. Drunks say and do things that are hurtful to others. For example, drunks typically alienate family members. They also tend to get behind the wheel and kill people.

Compare this to gays and lesbians. They have consensual sex with persons of the same gender. But I have a hard time thinking of how this is harmful to other human beings.

That's why I found it so shocking that Bob would compare a "drunkenness friendly" church to a "gay friendly" church. One lifestyle has the potential to harm people; the other one doesn't.

kdog said...

Bob compares being gay with being drunken because they are both sins. At our church we accept people the way they are when they come in our doors. We love them, and attempt to teach them about the love of Christ. We just had a sermon where the pastor told us adultery is an abomination just like homosexuality. Real Christians don't hate homosexuals. But the bible condemns homosexuality in the new and the old testaments. Jesus himself said "For this reason a man will leave father and mother and will cleave to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. Corinthians clearly condemns homosexuality. So after gay people or adulterers e.t.c. have been in the church for awhile have learned what the Bible says about sin. Then, they are told they must either turn their back on their sinful lifestyle, or sadly they must leave. So Christians have a choice. Be loyal to God and follow his word the Bible, or sell out to make peace. Christians must follow the Bible. This doesn't mean we hate homosexuals.